after reading what seems like the ten millionth scene of Bacchanalian male transcendence-through-debauchery, I find myself wondering if this phenomenon exists in any women's writings? the scene in Last Exit to Brooklyn for example, in which the waif is fucked nearly to death in the back of an junked car, was written by a man, yes? Are there any women who have written of the transcendent potential of orgiastic excess for women?
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, October 26, 2006 - 6:52 PMI recently discovered Annais Ninn, which has been an incredible experience in transcendental debauchery. -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Mon, November 13, 2006 - 5:00 PMI've only read her stories--does she ever write from her own perspective, of her own experience? -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 12:52 PMwell, she's famous for her diaries... -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Mon, March 12, 2007 - 8:10 PMKathy Acker.
Poppy Z. Brite -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Sat, April 7, 2007 - 4:34 AMAnd let's not forget :
Rachilde
Eurydice (also published as Eurudice) (full name: Eurydice Kamvisseli)
Unica Zurn
Dodie Bellamy
Margarita Karapanou (to an extent)
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Mon, April 9, 2007 - 8:21 PMyes. kathy acker.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 5:57 AMYou can fine Aiais Nin's published journals. She was a prodigious journal writer. I feel her journal work is her best.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Mon, April 9, 2007 - 8:24 PMbut anais was writng her erotica for a male patron. she wrote what he had asked for or what she felt he would enjoy. in her own life she was dramatic and romantic.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 9:56 AMI'll enter the fray here. A lot of my own books & shortt fiction deal with exactly this topic, which still seems to have the power to shock some people. Witness this review -- a good one, despite the headline: "Take a weird trip into a deep pit of moral decay" -- in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer --
www.cleveland.com/bookrevie.../index.ssf
Interesting to note that the fact that the protagonist is both bisexual and over 40 is conidered transgressive. -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Wed, April 25, 2007 - 5:02 AMThe Story of O is like the Gilgamesh of debauchery.
Acker is also debauchy, but she never seems to enjoy it much. Fucking a daddy who perpetually abandons you can only make one so tingly.
Angela Carter and Tanith Lee are pleasantly debauchy, in an intelligently purple sort of way. -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 5:59 AMThat was written by a man though, don't you feel a certain male prevelance through out? I know it was supposed to have been written by a woman, but that's horseshit.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, August 2, 2007 - 2:35 AMShannon : By the way -- I don't know if you're trying to describe the Story of O favorably there. (My actually having read The Story of O, which I still haven't gotten around to, would help, ahem (I've always meant to! But I'm not into debauchery for debauchery's sake. There has to be some true element of human feeling, and I'm not sure, based on what I've heard, what sort of depth The Story of O really has -- there's only one way to find out for sure, of course, but I've so much to read, so much . . . .).)
Anyhow, the point is, Gilgamesh I HAVE read, two or three times, looking for something interesting. There's not a lot there. Maybe I'll go through it a fourth time. Maybe I'll read the editorial notes this time (I almost always skip them). And it's always mystified me why the Sumerians held onto THESE stories, above all, to record and hide in an underground vault. Usually folktales are instructive parables, explanations of natural phenomena or human behavior, and paragonic(?) stories of heroic acts. Maybe (hopefully) there are other written stories still buried, but... I mean, neither Gilgamesh nor Enkidu is a heroic figure. Gilgamesh is just a big, spoiled son of a bitch who goes around causing everybody trouble, and Enkidu's just a hairy sidekick, really, and none of this is even amusing!
And there's only one significant [human] woman in the book, and she's a prostitute with a cameo role.
The point is that comparing The Story of O to the Epic of Gilgamesh isn't really an enticing comparison. But you've read The Story of O -- you can tell me whether it's crap or worthwhile reading? -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 2:03 AMback to the original question: are there women who've written of this?
hell yeah:
here's a few who come to mind who liberated my lil ole southern-fundamentalist-married-to-a-republican-white-male-asshole selfie:
carol queen
joani blank
the entire herotica series written exclusively by women
shere hite
nancy friday
lani k'ahamanu
julia serano
and me
i blog about my sexual adventures by night and my reclaiming the environment and peace and justice causes by day using my other profile: kinnari
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reply to:
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 2:20 AM"Where is the heterosexual female perspective on this? Even the female surrealists painted, in general, not sexualized men but sexualized women. (The misogynistic aura surrounding early French surrealism, of course, is not forgotten.)"
www.amazon.com/Great-Hous.../0140115862
i bought this book when i was a desperate housewife putting myself thru grad school at night and cleaning up shit by day.
it's a wonderful critique of the "male gaze" in art.
oh and why does it need to be het women???? why not include queer women in the critique?
guerilla girls are the best art critiques in the world!
www.guerrillagirls.com/stereo...x.shtml
and more interesting shit to ponder:
www.cynthiakorzekwa.org/housewife.htm
oh and has anybody been to the weird little museum for henry miller in the big sur?
what a patriarchal asshole! completely unworthy of anais' attention.
anais nin seems to me to be the perfect example of patriarchal eroticism taken to it's logical conclusion: a fawning pathetic sycophant hopeless without her man.
thank goddess she finally grew some ovaries in her journals!
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Re: reply to:
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 2:25 AMooops my spelling sucked in that last post but it's late and i'm tiredass.
nighty night. -
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gilgamesh
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 2:28 AMhahaha! we got assigned that in the fundamentalist book club i belonged to back when i was a desperate housewife.
it was supposed to convince us that the hebrew scripture's noah story HAD to be true since obviously there was another flood story in existence.
hahaha!
it had quite the opposite effect on me.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 6:01 AMCheck out "Bad Behavior" by Mary Gaitskill. -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Wed, May 9, 2007 - 4:58 PMI'd recommend Danielle Willis's "Dogs In Lingerie".
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Fri, May 4, 2007 - 10:10 PMI do have to admit, and perhaps this is the 'sensitive guy' syndrome, that the sort of crude (more than often detached) reference to sexual matters in men's writing makes me a little ill, so I tend to be turned off when they begin to write that way. I think, more than anything, it comes across as both fake and injurious, to men even more than women.
In my own writing, I always prefer to treat sexual matters in a more emotional way, as has been my personal experience (and nature). Sexuality, to me, has always been just as much about emotion as the physical drive, and my attitude has been quite opposite to this very, very strange distancing act that a lot of men (and women!) seem to have been perpetuating for way too long.
But one thing I've also wondered about is this: There is SO MUCH art generated by men in which men celebrate their various perceptions of female beauty. What I've wondered for years and years is: Where is the heterosexual female perspective on this? Even the female surrealists painted, in general, not sexualized men but sexualized women. (The misogynistic aura surrounding early French surrealism, of course, is not forgotten.) It has seemed to me, from the beginning, that female artists were, and are, far less interested in exploring their personal sexual feelings toward men than they have been in exploring their own personal sexual identity.
So... as a guy... I've often wondered: What about US? Aren't WE physically desirable? Our girlfriends (or wives) will tell us we are, and point out all the tiniest details. But female art does not seem to show this very often (and very rarely on tv or in movies). So... I think my burning, burning, burning question is: Why is female sexuality, publicly, SO inwardly directed?
Regardless of whether or not it might seem elitist: there are so many artists that I've come to know, male and female, who've ended up engendering a loving culture all their own which is quite separate, in various ways, from the fake trash that affects others, and in which men and women / girls and boys are more intimately connected than the television and movies would have non-artists believe. -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 7:12 AM>Why is female sexuality, publicly, SO inwardly directed?
This is an interesting question, and very nicely phrased.
I think it is because, even after all this time, women are still not really supposed to have agency in their sexuality. I think that many of us have very little sense of our own desires, because what is so deeply instilled is the necessity that we be desired.
I did a casual poll of some of my female students. All of them were feminists, all of them seniors, all active participants in the annual Vagina Monologues. And not one of them had any sense of her own vagina as a presence. Everyone of these beautiful, vibrant, activist young women considered themselves pretty much blank below the belt--unless activated by somebody else.
But you're absolutely right, there's not a lot of art made by women that regards males as beautiful objects of desire in their own right. Angela Carter comes to mind, kind of. But she makes such a point of reversing stereotypes it just all seems retro. I've seen some photography here and there that does exactly what you're describing. And it seems oddly transgressive, images that involve a woman's gaze. -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Thu, June 7, 2007 - 10:08 AMwhat about nancy friday? and have you read a grip of romance novels? - im sure they have something to say about male anatomy.
my fave female transgressive writer is Xue Can - shes the fowlest writer ive ever read. & who is that classic haiku chick that writes about flies fucking on the wall? she's a hoot.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Wed, August 1, 2007 - 9:34 PMdon't forget pat califia - he did a lot of wonderful writing when he was a woman.
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:10 PMthere are many:
lydia lunch, diamanda galas (the shit of god), exene cervenka, tricia warden, ritah parrish, cookie mueller, pat califia, danielle willis, dorothy allison. check out dick for a day, a collection of stories written by women with the premise that they've discovered they've grown dicks -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:11 PMalso evelyn lau who is phenomenal -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Fri, June 6, 2008 - 12:23 PMI just joined this tribe and find this discussion encouraging. I'm in the midst of writing a transgressive, female-POV novella with emotional/erotic focus. The female protagonist goes though an awakening of sorts while navigating the pitfals of being in a relationship with a much younger man. I'm really enjoying writing it.
On the other hand, where will I publish it? I don't really want to sweep it under the "erotica" rug and miss out on the literature aspects of it. But it is far to "dirty" for mainstream publishers.
What is a girl to do? -
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Re: debauchery in women's writing
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 4:56 PMPut it up here, we'll pass it around for you. (Not exactly publishing but distributing). I'm definitely interested.
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